A post on Scott William’s blog, Big is the New Small, is garnering some attention. See what you think. Click Here for the Post
Are we responsible for the people we listen to? If we aren’t then that frees me up to a few more sections at the book store, video store, the magazine stand, spiritual gurus, pay-per-view channels, heck I can actually watch Oprah and not worry about her where she’s getting her advice.
If we are responsible then there is plenty to turn off. Have you ever realized that there are actually things you can’t “Unsee,” “Unhear,” or “Unthink?” Once its in there it stays.
Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.
(In the interest of full disclosure I am one of the commentators on the post at Scott’s site. )
Man God IS good! I find that every lesson He has for me is repeated over and over.
Phil 4:8 is one of my recent memory verses (from a a couple of months ago) and I was reminded of it yesterday in conversation with a friend and again in prayer this morning and again while listening to Ted Dekker’s “The Slumber of Christianity”. He makes the case that there are many things we should “think on” on a regular basis . . . things we find the the Bible, over and over . . . things we see as uncivilized . . . . Death, confrontation, war, heaven to name a few.
So I agree, we are responsible for what we listen to in the negative sense (the “don’t”) but I think God wants us to focus on the riches he has for us and not what we perceive to have lost because of our faith (which, in reality, is not lost at all).
BTW – Cindy’s remarks on Bigisthenewsmall were great
[...] What if I don’t like you? What if I don’t know you? What if I don’t care what your opinion of me is? The better part of wisdom might be using some judgment before asking me to be transparent. I only do that with people I trust. And I’ve just given you an example of what I am capable of doing with that “trust” to just my online acquaintances. Meeting me in person, well, I’m just an old, out of shape, slightly balding grandfather who can fake normal better than most of you. It can be quite uneventful. Or you can try to get to know me. And I can try not to rip your heart out. Ever heard the one about the scorpion wanting to hitch a ride across the river? I like layers. Did you know that the facial expression we think of as a grin looks just like the ancient way of trying to frighten off an opponent by baring all your teeth? [...]
Truly Noel, she’s got a great blog and a great knack for turning a point just to the side so you get a much clearer view on it.
Selfishly I need to make one thing a little more clear. I found what I think to be the disconnect between myself and Mr. Paravane. When I say “judge” I mean “distinguish and evaluate.” What I did NOT say was “condemn” which is “strong censure or severe reproof”
I condemn the hate speech, I judge the speaker, and I love the creation but am disappointed that he is not spreading freedom instead of victimization.
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Bert Boan, this is an interesting exchange for several reasons. The reason you found meeting me “uneventful” is because you were not someone I knew before that meeting in any way, shape or form. I barely “shared” with one person there the edge of my reality. I don’t think he found the experience “uneventful”. I have a unique relationship with LC, that’s several years old. It required me to set a task for the one person there I came to actually have an “eventful” meeting with. If he followed through on the task, I bet you anything he found the “complete experience” much more “eventful” than he wanted. If so, it was more “eventful” for him than I wanted it to be. I’ve almost learned to enjoy meeting people as the “paravane”. As one of the damaged, I prefer to be as gray as possible to you normals until I either trust you enough to allow you to hurt me, or I know you well enough to hurt you if necessary. Pain, inflicted on and received by is the transparency of the reality of words that I learned before I learned to walk. I learned it well. I don’t admire cruelty for it’s own sake, I grew up with far too much of that. But I know how to use cruelty when I feel threatened. I know how to take unintended cruelty and decide on whether I trust the person who inflicted it enough to ignore it. The “gift” I was given at an early age was empathy. Not as you might think of it. Those of us who survive the damage learn to use empathy as a survival instinct. But there is a world of difference between unintended cruelty and unintended arrogance. Arrogance, even unintended, requires a choice, in my world. I may be the most arrogant person I know, but that could just be the arrogance talking.(grin)
These factors make me very cautious about Real Life meetings. There is so much more of an investment in not just meeting someone in person, but allowing them through the fake reality of normalcy we pretend to with strangers. This is a huge part of what intrigues me the most about you aliens. All of us mortals exist within our own heads. It’s a prison we can’t share with anyone else. Yet you claim that part of you is dead and reborn the servant of One who if any of us were to actually meet in mortal form, we would not physically survive the encounter. You claim He is your motive for everything. You claim your life shows Him in everything you say and do.
That’s a fascinating claim. I’ve learned not to fear the boastful among you. You are like little lambs who have wandered away from the flock. I don’t feed on you, that’s not the type of monster I am. You aren’t my meat. But I have no problem being amused by you as you stumble over the rocks and close to the edge of a cliff. I’m not your shepherd either. I have no problem roaring at you to see if it startles you off the edge. And please, do judge me. It makes you smell like food.
No, the really scary aliens among you are the ones that shine with the light of the One who can not be looked upon. When I think I’ve harmed them, I not only feel bad about it, but they forgive me in the worse possible way. Without even trying, they humble me with the presence of He who is Love. The sharpest weapon in His arsenal. Judgment is laughable to me. I judge myself worse than you sheep ever could. And I know that He won’t, as long as I walk this earth in mortal shape. But you sheep, when you truly obey Him and sacrifice your fear, your pride, your very selfishness that most mortals thrive on. You offer it up on His alter, and it no longer matters what flaws you have. You can’t do this intentionally. I’ve met enough of you who try to impress me with your self-help style “works” that I’m no longer disappointed when you finally stumble over the futility of works, even on yourselves. Now I just find it amusing. Not judging me is probably one of the most difficult things you aliens will ever do, if I trust you with what I really am. I’ve only found two of you capable of doing that in person. I’ve met a few others that trust enough to want to see more of their faith, but only two that I trust to be around the monster, and show no fear. Believe me, despite their all too human flaws, I walk carefully and with humility around them. Not because of them. They are
mortals just like the rest of us. But without triggering a single finely honed instinct of mine, I can all too often suddenly find myself in the presence of He who created reality, and hear a voice inside my head saying “Take off your shoes. For you stand on Holy Ground.” It’s painful, but pain is not something that I’m unfamiliar with. It stirs a hunger for something I have rarely ever experienced, but hunger isn’t new to me either. Humility is. Wanting to feel humble, that’s just weird. (grin)
But here, you are on my turf. A world of perceived reality. You want to come here and be a witness? You want to set up your alien blogs and speak your “truth” out where everyone and everything can see it? You want to “judge” this world? You’d better be prepared. Let me make something clear to you. I am not a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Do not make assumptions about me. I do not claim to be an heir to the throne of God, a partner with Christ, a warrior in the battle against the evil one, or a beloved of the Father. My use of the phrases “my church” and “my pastor” are new and shocking to me, and have nothing to do with people like you. But I do not claim that they mean I have suddenly found myself miraculously “saved”. Words are my tools. My weapons. I took in their many edged nature with my mother’s milk. I am shocked by pain, not
surprised by it.
I’m amused when I see aliens playing with the sharp edges of the Word as if they were toys. That’s because you aren’t my children. Your Father is not someone I take lightly, but if you come onto my hunting ground and try to use them against me, merely because I yawn and try to point out the edges to you, well, you get to meet the lion. What you took for sarcasm was merely banter. No matter how you slice and dice Matthew 7:1, you’ll have to keep in mind that I’m not the author of it. Substitute any words you want for “judge”, and the verse still works the same. It’s your get out of jail free card, not a reinterpretation of an eye for an eye. As for the man Obama “sat under the spiritual leadership of”, I am truly humbled by your proclamation as qualified to cast the first stone. And at a pastor no less. You truly are a braver man than me. Now that
was sarcasm. (grin)
I’m probably the last person to claim I know how you should use discernment. But boldly proclaiming your righteousness to the world online, and how that qualifies you to publicly condemn the doctrine, faith and anointing of God on a shepherd God has never placed you under, well, you smell like food. (grin) Here’s a fun thought exercise. What would you do if your God told you He wanted you to go live in that community, and attend that church. He doesn’t ask you to check with your pastor or “accountability partner” or wife or family or to consider the possible spiritual ramifications or any of the many reasons you can come up with for why you shouldn’t choose to do this. He doesn’t ask you to choose. He doesn’t give you any reason, logic or safety net. The only answer you get to any doubts or fears or questions is “because I asked you to”. Be honest. Could you? I love games. Don’t you? (grin)
Another thing you shouldn’t make assumptions about is content of the character of everyone that goes to my church. Worse things than me have walked through their doors. They welcome anyone with open arms and hearts. They get sliced up quite a bit sometimes in the process. They merely consider it a part of their sacrifice to the one who does not judge them for what they have been forgiven. That humbles me. See where I’m coming from? Am I still “worthy”? Wanna see more? I do like the title of your post trackback. A grin is subjective to perception. (grin)
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Well, you asked for the rest of it, so there it is. I’m still far too willing to walk off that sudden cliff. (grin) And it’s really too long for a comment. That’s one of the reasons I started my own blog. So I could turn my really long comments into posts! The other reason is lately I’m finding myself in midair a lot more often. Maybe I can tone down the arrogance in my own posts. But you asked. And you smirked! Only Scott Williams has earned the right to smirk at me and not suffer the arrogance! uh…I meant to say consequences. Yeah, cause I’m a real scary monster. boo! (grin)
By the way, while I liked your response to the part of this I cut out and actually comment responded on BigIsTheNewSmall, I didn’t understand your answer. The question was: Craig is a “worthy” pastor indeed. What will you do when he fails you? Will he no longer be worthy of your presence? Will that mean that LC is no longer worthy of you? Inquiring minds want to know. (grin)
Welcome, Jimmy Paravane, I’m am sincerely glad you came. Feel free to post here, as often and with as much length as the subject warrants.
I’ve read Transparency and your post here. There is much to digest. I will reply today.
I do my best thinking while I am cutting the grass. At this house I have to think very quickly, I only have 700 square feet of yard. I may have to go over it twice.
No, Mr. Paravane, you’re thinking too hard, the reason I found our meeting uneventful was that I meet several people each week working at that booth. Most of them comment on the mac because it looks different. After we met Scott told me who you were and that you commented on the blogs sometimes. The whole statement was meant as a complement meaning that your words were impressive. Again concentrating on the first half of the sentence and not the whole statement.
The original point of this debate was the judgement on Mr. Obama’s membership at a church with a controversial pastor. My stance was that I could look unfavorably on Obama because he choose to stay in that environment and associate with a man so full of hate toward a large part of this country. The reason I feel this way is because I have left churches based on the statements of the pastors from the pulpit. One who had very little to say and didn’t give his sermons any thought until he was in the pulpit. It was obvious that the only reason the congregation was there was because it was the church their families had gone to and they were supposed to be there on Sunday morning. The last Sunday I attended I left during the prayer after the offering. I had better things to do with my time. The next church I left because the preacher made an anti-semitic joke in the middle of a sermon. He went on to blame “the gays,” and “the democrats,” and any other group he could think of for ruining this country. When he should have been blaming the “church.” After that Sunday I decided I was no longer Southern Baptist. I then went on a quest to find a pastor that spoke the truth in love with grace and passion. I thought I found him at a church down on 10th street but after a while it became evident that he was addicted to the emotion he could whip up. It was empty to me. So, yes, I look at pastors as mentors, not as popes.
To your question about Craig that I thought I answered fairly succinctly: Yes, I’ll move on if I can’t trust my mentor / pastor to live the gospel. My faith is in Christ, not Craig.
I’m glad that at least a couple of us have been able to show Christ in our treatment / forgiveness.
“well, you get to meet the lion” Jimmy, there is a contrast I’d like to point out. It is the difference between the armies that are at war in the heavenlies, the light and the dark, the good and the evil:
Christ said: “I have come to seek and to save that which was lost” His purpose was to “give life and it to the full.”
Scripture says in 1 Peter: “Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour.”
You talk a lot about motivation, is it your motivation to give life or to devour those you judge to be boastful? Or do you see it as your “job” to test believers to see if they meet your standard of an alien or if they are mere mortals, or just complete hypocrites? Only the sick need a doctor.
If I boldly proclaim my righteousness:
The wicked man flees though no one pursues, but the righteous are as bold as a lion. Ps. 28:1
For God did not give us a spirit of timidity, but a spirit of power, of love and of self-discipline. 2 Tim. 1:7
This series that Craig is doing now, The Warrior, this IS the gospel to me. Jesus was meek, not weak. If you want to know what I aspire to it is the principles he lays down in these upcoming messages.
OK, I’ll switch up and concentrate on the last half of the sentence and not the whole statement. on this one.(grin) Do you really believe you have enough information on this pastor to proclaim him “a man so full of hate toward a large part of this country”?, and just move on? Actually to me the original point of this debate was the judgement on Mr. Obama’s Pastor first, since that’s the basis for judging Obama for his membership of this church, and not just as someone who associated with this pastor. And not just this pastor and Obama, but every single member of this pastor’s congregation is guilty by association as well. Do you really believe you have enough information gathered to do all that? You’d have no problem laying it out for Scott Williams or Craig Groeschel? They’d agree with you and back you up?
“You talk a lot about motivation, is it your motivation to give life or to devour those you judge to be boastful? Or do you see it as your “job” to test believers to see if they meet your standard of an alien or if they are mere mortals, or just complete hypocrites? Only the sick need a doctor.” Good question. I just blogged about my motivations. (grin)
Before I stop this response, I just can’t resist jumping back to the first part of that sentence(grin). When you say: “My stance was that I could look unfavorably on Obama”, isn’t that just a nicer way of saying “Hey everybody, I’ve judged Obama, and my verdict is he’s unfavorable”?
A person close to me was jailed as a young man because he was in the company of people stealing car stereos. He was as guilty as they because he did nothing about it.
For the last time, the answer is yes. I feel Mr. Obama is as accountable for these speeches as the man delivering them. As well as the people cheering him on in the audience. Along with making the sexual gyrations in the pulpit I am repulsed by his statements, his demeanor, and his actions. You know what I would respect? If I saw this man say, “You know, their are white people in suburban America that need to know what they are doing to us. Let’s start a ministry where we go to them and see if we can unite the people of this country and save the start peace on this planet.” Yes, I have enough info and I am now moving on.
What am I supposed to lay out for Scott and Craig? Scott’s the one who posted in the first place? Do you think he posted this video with journalistic objectiveness? Or to make a point? What point would that be? Why don’t you ask him?
Truth is I don’t know what Scott or Craig would agree with but based on what I see in the scriptures, yes, he is spreading hate not love.
To the last question: Jimmy, you are one thick dude, Yes, I wouldn’t sit in Mr. Wright’s church nor would I vote for any other 20 year member. What else would he minimize? Our relationship with Israel? You know those Jewish people live there.
I grew up in the “Old South,” There was not an older man in my life that didn’t judge people by the color of their skin. That model didn’t fit what I heard in the gospel, therefore that attitude stops with me. I judge this pastor based on his words (content of character, “overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.”) against the Word and it doesn’t match. Mr. Obama claims to be a Christian, therefore he should know that this speech and these attitudes don’t match up. If he has asked this man for guidance before then he will do it again, while in office.
I didn’t like Bill Clinton but I have greater respect for Tony Campolo than I do Mr. Wright.
John 9:41 Jesus said, “If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.”
Proverbs 16:23 A wise man’s heart guides his mouth, and his lips promote instruction.
So, do you ignore all good points or just those you don’t have an answer for? Or are those both the same thing?
Of course you can move on. It’s your blog. Let me just answer the questions you asked me:
Q: “What am I supposed to lay out for Scott and Craig?”
A: “Actually to me the original point of this debate was the judgement on Mr. Obama’s Pastor first, since that’s the basis for judging Obama for his membership of this church, and not just as someone who associated with this pastor. And not just this pastor and Obama, but every single member of this pastor’s congregation is guilty by association as well. Do you really believe you have enough information gathered to do all that?”
Since you stated this in this round, you can lay this out for them too: “Truth is I don’t know what Scott or Craig would agree with but based on what I see in the scriptures, yes, he is spreading hate not love.” Keep in mind that I’m not asking you to get together and discuss a private dispute among believers. You aliens have dragged these “judgments” out before the ungodly in the court of public opinion. If he is spreading hate and not love, what are you spreading?
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Q: “Scott’s the one who posted in the first place? Do you think he posted this video with journalistic objectiveness? Or to make a point? What point would that be? Why don’t you ask him?”
A: Yes, Scott did post this. But our exchange started with your response to my comment. At least that’s my assumption. I’ve always thought of Scott as having a lot of objectivity. And he makes very good points, heck even his questions can be pointy.(grin) Well, I think the point he implied with his statement after the video was “Obama had previously made a statement that everyone would feel comfortable at his church; Hmmmm is he really that naive.” I doubt it’s lost on Scott that all kinds of Christians would, and have had no problem stating that they have felt, uncomfortable in an LC campus service. I would be surprised if there weren’t a few people just like Obama who are members of LC that think everyone would feel comfortable at their church. But, that’s an assumption on my part. Hey Scott! You reading this? Are there? Inquiring minds want to know.(grin)
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Q: “So, do you ignore all good points or just those you don’t have an answer for? Or are those both the same thing?”
A: Ooh good one! OK, do I ignore “good points”, well, that’s a subjective view really. I think you’ve ignored some of my “good points”, I’m gathering you feel I’ve ignored some of your “good points”. I’m gonna have to ignore this part of your question and move on.(grin) As for ignoring those I don’t have an answer for, oh yeah, I definitely do that. I even gave an example of doing this for one of the points you raised initially in a post on my blog: “He had a point I pretty much had to ignore because I didn’t have a good response to it. Judging those who wanted to go out with his daughter. When my granddaughter is old enough to date, my personal “judgment” tells me the best course of action would be to send her to an all girl’s school. Until she’s 30. On the moon.” Really good point that I just didn’t have an answer for, at least not one that disagreed with you. I ignored it big time.(grin) Do I think both of those are the same thing? I don’t think they’re the same thing, but again, perspective.
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Dang. I wanted to just answer your questions, but you said it, and I just have to ask because it fits so well into this exchange:
“To the last question: Jimmy, you are one thick dude” OK now I’m really fascinated! Fortunately, my feelings are only hurt by people I know, trust and admire. They’re the only people I allow to hurt my feelings. But I have to ask, is that a judgment of me? I mean it can’t be a condemnation, right? It can’t be a “transparent” observation of my body, because, while I do have a pretty good middle-age bulge going, I don’t see how that applies to a question I asked. It doesn’t sound like a compliment, or encouragement…it can’t be an insult. You aliens aren’t allowed. Words are fun, aren’t they? (grin)
[...] I’m sure it has nothing to do with the fact that even now I’m engaged in a game of who can stop “last” with the snarkiest questions on another blog. Right? [...]
“…even now I’m engaged in a game of who can stop “last” with the snarkiest questions on another blog.”
In all seriousness, consider it stopped, You win. Wanna go get some coffee with a judgmental arrogant sinner? We can talk about our time living in abandoned buildings, begging for odd jobs, jonesing for smoke, and dealing with addiction, and the grace that brought us back. Its easy for me too, to read someone’s thoughts online and assume that because they don’t harp on how hard their life has been that they have it made and their faith is somehow easier than yours/mine.
I think I’ve answered all the questions, I’m done. Serious about the coffee though.
Dang it bert you can’t lose this way! It’s not fair! Yer being nice, and that’s playing dirty!. I hate it when I’ve been all “take that! and that! and snarky and thinking I might have a chance to win this game of “Uh uh! Yer more arrogant than I am!”, and then you go and win by saying “I give up. you win”, and being nice and asking me to go for a cup of coffee. That’s just…worthy. And yer more hardcore street than I was too! I’m getting older by the minute.(grin)
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I was never hardcore street enough to sleep in a cardboard box or an abandoned building. I did the “I just vant to be alone” thing, and as you know, that’s extremely dangerous to do hardcore. I was in L.A. skidrow, and there were enough mission beds and “programs” that I could mission bed for a week and program hop between welfare check binges. A few nights of sleeping in the open until 3am cheap movie theatres downtown, or a mission chapel chair, or the “don’t mind me, I’m just waiting on a train” sleeping and sink bathing at the train station. I did stay in several skidrow hotels on those binges, but I was too young, foolish, and in denial of my objective reality to realize how dangerous that was at the time. Not to mention all that was over 15 years ago. I have no idea what skidrow L.A. is like after all the gentrification and 9/11.
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Actually you missed when I had a whole other blog called “a silent scream” where I did harp on how hard my life had been. I had to stop because it was really depressing me more than anyone else. But sometimes it hurt so good, if you know what I mean? Who doesn’t love a good round of “nobody knows what it’s like, to be the bad man, to be the sad man…behind blue eyes.” (grin)
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About the cup of coffee, I’m gonna have to do a “mea culpa” Post Update on my last post because you won by losing. That is so Christian, it’s just, annoying. (grin) I’ll explain a little about my “go get a cup of coffee situation, and I don’t post a lot of details on my blog about the personal situation because it’s not about my health. I’m actually in OK shape health wise, so far, for my age. Not shape, I’m way out of shape. (grin).
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But I’m a fulltime caregiver to a loved one, and it makes arranging meetings in advance almost an impossibility. The times I can get out by myself now are infrequent and spontaneous. Not really effective to post “Hey! Anybody that wants to have a cup of coffee with me, name a coffee shop! I can be there in 10 minutes because it has to be that close to where I live, and I may only have an hour or two, and I might have to leave at a moment’s notice, and you have to let me know by commenting within an hour of this post, but come on! Now’s yer chance!” (grin)
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My church is about the only place I can say that I know I’ll be at on a regular basis. I usually do spend a lot of time there just chatting. That’s actually a big part of what that church is about. Other than all that singing and worshipping God and other churchy stuff. (grin)
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Hey, is it OK if I add your blog to my blogroll at aliens among us?
Yeah that be great to get on your blogroll, or anyone else’s for that matter.
Nah, I didn’t win by losing, It just takes so much time to digest and convert these topics that I wasn’t getting other stuff done, like helping Scott with his new blog template, except the lawn does look good.
In the interest of full disclosure… I did have a bed in that building and I was holding a job, just couldn’t/didn’t afford rent or running water. I was able to put up a good show to the outside world. I just slept in a wreck. But, it was above a blues club so I got to go to sleep to “Big Boss Man” and “Terraplane Blues” and bad SRV copy-cats.